RK: You believe, however, that among the more prominent researchers of CE4, human involvement/interference is underreported.
KT: Yes, like Debbie Jordan/Kathy Davis, when Hopkins did the book on "Kathy Davis," he never mentioned that she had military/underground abduction with medical procedures. Debbie told me all about it. When I got ready to do this book, I said, Debbie, can I refer to your experience; as you're a well-known person, it (lends) credibility to these unknown people if they knew someone as well-investigated as you have been would say, yes, this happened to you. She said absolutely. Go ahead and do it. I'm writing my own book and will go into detail, so yes... And there are other of Bud's CE4s who've reported military involvement.
ML: Katharina Wilson's book mentions others.
KT: John Carpenter has had cases reporting military. David Jacobs - if he has had them - I'm assuming he has, but if he has, he would have said, 'you were just seeing ETs in disguise ... there are no humans involved in this.' So this would not have been discussed.
ML: I spoke privately with Bud, where he narrowed it down to about five cases with (what he accepts as) military participation.
KT: But, Melinda, if there's only 5 cases, is that, therefore, to say this isn't worth worrying about. These cases would be those you'd most want to pursue, if you're really looking for information!
ML: I said to him, isn't it potentially the most incredible and most fertile ground for research, because it's human, it's a traceable trail of events we can investigate by known procedures; as opposed to ETs, who use technology we can't follow, etc. He said, "Yes. But I (he) can only do so much. If you want to (do it), I support you one hundred percent."
RK: You mean, by harping too hard on this aspect of CE4, the influential people whom prominent researchers attempt to gain association with, may react, further marginalizing the issue?
KT: See, I think that's a futile hope. All the researchers who try to gain mainstream respectability, therefore downplaying and backpedaling and partially censoring... (that's) a lost cause... you're never going to get the respect you want. I don't care what you do.
ML: Meanwhile, a lot of the evidence is being missed. People are being excluded from presentations...
KT: If you want credibility, get out of this field. You can't have both!
RK: (Licia has deduced the following may generally explain who is responsible for her re-abductions and surveillance, confirmed by someone she believed was a legitimate intelligence agent.) Those humans responsible for her monitoring (helicopter surveillance, phone taps, etc.) are not exclusively governmental/military ops. Rather, they represent corporate intelligence; e.g. Defence Intelligence Security Command, or PI-40. In addition to possible monitoring by a section of the National Reconnaissance Office, or an alleged DOD group called N9-11. Do you have any correlations in this area, so as to dispel imprecise conclusions based on blanket observations that humans dressed in paramilitary garb must be truly military?
KT: I don't have any names of specific groups, intelligence, military, civilian/corporate. No. From the cases we've (pursued), here's what I can say: The facilities include personnel from more than one branch. The facilities themselves are obviously government authorized and funded, because they match those we've known are government underground facilities.
RK: The branches were distinguishable?
KT: Yes. By uniform, at least. "In 'Angie's' case" (11), the people told her she was (they told her several things) part of a genetics/cloning experiment (this was from the humans who had her). Another time, the military people told her she was part of an ongoing military mind control project called "High Shelf Project." And we didn't know if that was the name of a project or if it was a term like very, very high classification of secrecy, or covert. We didn't know what that meant.
ML: When you (named) that during your lecture, a (personally well-known) investigator said that "High Shelf" was an actual name of an MKULTRA subproject.
KT: Okay, which "they" told her. And Angie would know nothing of this, absolutely nothing of this! She said they told her they were part of the "High Shelf" operation, an ongoing mind control program. And that their special group, comprised of people from all branches of military, operated primarily in underground bases. And I wish your friend would speak to me. We've never had anyone identify what "High Shelf" means.
RK: MKULTRA has been documented as a bonafide CIA covert program.
KT: Why would they be picking on somebody like Angie, who's a remote wife of a rancher in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee, but who's had CE4s since childhood?
RK: ...that she came up with that term.
KT: They told her the term. And she would have no way of knowing that.
RK: This is an anomalous thing, that they come up with such details and don't need hypnosis to recall such descriptions.
ML: In my particular two incidences, I can say I'm 99.99% sure it's military, just because of their uniforms, their actions, and treatment of me. It just smacked of military.
KT: And it's authorized at some level. They've got money out the kazoo, the best equipment...
ML: It could be both (military and corporate). And I don't think we need to say it's one or the other, or both doing it separately. It could be that at this level there isn't a distinction between the two.
KT: It makes use of all those resources as it wants to. Because it's above them. And can pick what it wants! I'll tell you something, though. Civilians are involved, obviously. Because there are medical and scientific personnel. A woman who was working at a university hospital, a big one in Arkansas, was wanting to move, get a better job. She was in the office computer end of things, not the medical end.
She got an offer; apparently a real smart woman and good at her job. She got a phone call, having gone to a "head hunter" for different job possibilities in (various) areas; got a call back for an interview with an astounding salary base. But she had to fly to Dallas to be interviewed, and they paid for her flight to Dallas. She met at a restaurant with representatives of this company. And they told her almost nothing; very, very little about the details of the work. (I think it frightened her quite a bit after she thought about it.) But it was great pay. They said they would pay for her to relocate.
The one question they asked that made it stop for her was: The job, by the way, was underground. You would have to be underground for two years. You could not come up for two years - not that you'd work underground, then go home on the surface. You'd have to stay underground and live and work for two years if you want the job - pays a lot of money, gives you a lot of benefits. But you stay underground.
RK: This woman told you her story directly?
KT: Directly. And she did not take the job. No. She said no way in hell could she stay underground for two years.
RK: Did she tell you the name of the company?
KT: No. She said after (leaving) the interview, she started thinking about how weird it was regarding whatever, apparently, was said; there were no threats made, everybody was very nice to her. Yet, the way they shut off and shut down; things that were implied made her very, very uncomfortable. And she has left the state. I don't know where she's gone. This was two years ago (1993).
RK: She was just a woman with an expertise they wished to recruit.
KT: Yeah. She was a computer operator/clerical type, good with computers; it would have been a desk job.
RK: How did you run into her?
KT: She worked with a friend who (went) to our CE4 discussion group. They worked in the same university hospital office together; was a good friend of hers. That's how (the friend said) when she heard about it, she said, "You gotta hear this!"
ML: You know (Eisenhower's statement) "Beware of the Military/Industrial Complex"? That's what it is. At this high level, the military/industrial complex is one and the same. Military/industrial is the same thing, when you get to that level.
KT: Right!
RK: Where does one leave off and the other begin? That may be the prerequisite for understanding this issue.
Notes
(1) Turner, Karla, Ph.D., Taken, Kelt Works, 1994.
(2) i.e., either by monitors for the NSA, DIA, NRO, or branch-specific military intelligence; or monitors for military-industrial complex contractors; e.g. Defense Industrial Security Command, Jason Group, or "PI-40" were perhaps formerly known as MJ-12 and now carry on where MJ-12 left off.
(3) Casteel, Sean, "Interview With Katharina Wilson, Author of 'Alien Jigsaw'," MUFON Journal No. 329, 9/95
(4) Ibid
(5) Ibid
(6) Sauder, Richard, Ph.D., Underground Bases and Tunnels: What is the Government Trying to Hide?, Dracon Press, 1995
(7) Turner, Karla, Ph.D., Into the Fringe, Kelt Works, 1994.
(8) Lammer, Helmut, Ph.D., "Preliminary Findings of Project MILAB: Evidence for Military Kidnappings of Alleged UFO Abductees," MUFON Journal No. 344, 12/96; also see MILABS: Military Mind Control and Alien Abduction, IllumiNet, (770) 279-2745.
(9) Ibid
(10) Sims, Derrel and Leir, Roger, M.D., see www.anw.com/FIRST
(11) Turner, Taken.
