30 111041
Caller (rep. Istook): "I don't think they expected the truck to blow up. I believe, and I've believed this for a long time... I believe that number two — John Doe #2 — was a federal agent working undercover. And I believe that he helped McVeigh steal the goods and helped buy the equipment, and I believe that he helped McVeigh make the bomb, and I believe that his whole task in this whole thing... his only real task was to render the device safe so that the federal agents could pretend to remove it and move in. They did not want to move in until he was cleared of the scene so that they wouldn't tip their hands. See what I'm saying? And the odds are pretty good that whole reason behind this is because they were after someone bigger than McVeigh, which means they probably think he was linked to somebody in the Militia movement or something like that. "So I think what you're saying... you know I understand what you're saying... but I don't think you see the big picture. I don't think that , you know, I'd only divulge a look at the big picture if that's the actual scenario. If that's the actual scenario, which I believe it to be, I think there really is no claim that the agent, that was John Doe #2, did not render the bomb safe. Which he very well may have rendered the bomb safe, and then McVeigh may have put in a second fail-safe which he didn't know about. Which is probably what's happened.... "I would bet money on that's, in fact, the way this whole thing came down. Yes, they stood out in front of the building. Yes, they followed him directly to the building. Yes, they watched him get out of the building... get out of the truck. Yes, they watched him drive off. That's not ... that was their plan. I don't believe they ever planned to apprehend him anywhere near the building. I believe that John Doe #2 was a federal witness. His job was to render the device safe. Therefore, the only thing sitting out in front of that building was a bomb... a truck loaded with a bomb that would not go off. And I think that's the situation. In fact I know it is."
McDonald: "Okay... so... so why didn't they just come out and explain that to everybody?"
Caller: "The public doesn't have to know that. When it comes to the national security and things like this, the public does not have to know... the public is not required to know. First of all, by doing that, they would've, uh, put their witness, which is the federal agent John Doe #2, they would have blown his cover, first of all. Which possibly he's involved in something right now that you have no idea about. You know, there very well may have been numerous plots involving numerous buildings. See what I'm saying? You don't have the whole picture... without full knowledge... what you may do may cost them their lives. You should be very aware of that."
McDonald: "Okay. Well, that's what I've been trying to be very careful of. I don't want to see anyone else get hurt. At the same time..."
Caller: "...Well, if that guy's cover's been blown, he'd dead already."
McDonald: "Do you think so?"
Caller: "Sure... I'm sure. Once you have gone up to this point, it has gotten out, which I'm sure it has, because there are moles everywhere... the chances are good that he's been terminated already and this whole thing has blown up in their face. I don't believe that, out of an act of negligence, these highly trained professionals would have allowed that man to leave that truck out in front of that building with its live bomb in it."
McDonald: No, no, no. It stood out there for the whole time, from the time it pulled up until it went off."
Caller: "That's what I'm saying. They would not have allowed it. The only reason they allowed the truck to sit there so long, is because in my opinion they were under the impression that that bomb was rendered safe. And I'd say that there was no rush... there was no reason... to evacuate the building. There was no rush to make an arrest. The truck was just going to sit out there until they went and towed it off. So I don't think they thought it was an emergency and I think either that John Doe #2 made a mistake in rendering the bomb safe, or McVeigh was smart enough to plant a second fail-safe. Which most bomb makers do."
McDonald: "Do you think that's why they didn't tell anybody?"
Caller: "No. The bomb was safe as far as they knew."
McDonald: "Okay. Well, that explains why there was so many of them (federal agents) there so fast."
Caller: "Exactly. They followed him to the building, their agent was in the truck with him when they followed him to the building, everything was under control, as far as they thought, all they had was the man who built the bomb that was not going to go off, because their agent had rendered it safe. And their whole thing was not a problem. Let him drive his truck right in front of his target, then they allowed him to drive off. "Once he drives off, he renders the truck safe, and then we can have the trooper arrest him on the interstate for bogus charges. Which they did, and this was all planned out 1 00 percent. I . . . I . . . I don't believe they allowed that truck. . . "
McDonald: "You don't think they intentionally let the bomb go off?"
Caller: "No, that's right. I'll never believe that."
McDonald: "Well, I mean, that's the only thing about this that I found so hard to believe."
Caller: "They... they thought the bomb was safe. They thought that their agent, who was in the truck and who helped prepare the bomb, would set it so it would not go off. Now, whether McVeigh went back to the truck... where the agent did not know... and put a second fail- safe... or the agent made a mistake and did not actually render the bomb safe like he was supposed to... that's what's going on here."
McDonald: "Well, see, that's it then. I wanted someone that would be able to tell us for a fact if this was, like, deliberate or not. You know what I'm saying?"
Caller: "I'm not gong to tell you that. Let me tell you something. I'm sure they had... everything was under surveillance there. So I'm sure they do have pictures of the building blowing up, and I'm sure they do have pictures of federal agents, and I'm sure they do have audio tapes of them saying: Let 'em go, let 'em go. . . Wait, wait, wait. . . " there was no rush in their mind. In their mind, there was no rush to get that truck away from that building... that bomb... was not supposed to go off. "Therefore, everything they did, fits, if you think about it. they followed it, they allowed it to drive up there knowing that there was a bomb in the truck. Their idea was to let John Doe #2 — their federal agent — they would be able to use him in further investigations of these bombings of these groups that are in militia groups. And this was a perfect entry in, because he could have went through there. "After McVeigh was arrested, John Doe #2 would have become a hero to the cause of the militias. And the militias would have taken him in and hid him, which would have made him part of the infrastructure of the militias. Which is what their goal was forthis whole thing... waste bust the militias. If you take the big picture, and look at the big picture, there were very few mistakes made on this sting operation, with the exception that John Doe #2, the federal agent, did not render the bomb safe. Just think of it this way, Ramona."
McDonald: "I've always been a big fan of the United States and that, but then... I've always been... this was the one thing that bothered me."
Caller: "They didn't let the building fall intentionally. Their opinion was that this bomb was rendered safe and this bomb would not go off. And their whole thing on this thing... if you think about it... it makes sense from a tactical standpoint. You would follow the truck to the building. You allow your lead suspect to get away from the building because it didn't blow up, because it's not supposed to. You take John Doe #2... he gets away, which is your federal agent. John Doe #1 — McVeigh — is arrested on a bogus charge and then later proven that he's the one who planted the bomb that did not go off."
McDonald: "But you honestly don't think that they really intended..."
Caller: "Not at all. Not at all. They would not have to. No.... Basically, what happened is, this was a mistake. Someone screwed up and the only one that screwed up... The agents on the scene? They didn't screw up. They did exactly what their orders were: Wait... allow the suspect to leave the scene. Once the suspect had left the scene, then render the truck safe, which is already safe. All they have to do is get in, give it a hot-wire, and drive it off to a safe location and then open up the back and disarm the bomb. Which was supposedly rendered safe to begin with. Okay? "And then, from there... they charge in... See, the plan... this plan was put in motion before the bomb ever went off. Their intent was to allow McVeigh to be arrested later on... John Doe#2 to get away... and then, John Doe #2, the Federal Government would have released a sketch or picture. And then, that man would have had to go underground and hide. Where would he hide? He would have hid with the militias. The militias would take him in as a hero. The militias would give him hero status in the Militia movement, which would allow him to be privy to information that the government could use later on... "...they did not want that building to blow up. I guarantee you this... their whole intent was that that bomb was rendered safe before it was ever parked in frontof that building... otherwise, they would have quietly..."
McDonald: "...Got everybody out of the building?"
Caller: "Got everybody out of the building, before the bomb ever even pulled up in front of the building. There was no reason for them to do that, because according to their plan, the bomb was safe now. There was no reason to evacuate the building and the panic... because there was a truck loaded with a bomb that was not going to blow up. . . . "
McDonald: "Okay." Caller: "See what I'm saying? And John Doe#2.... By going this far with it... Let me explain something to you. Your actions have consequences. There are a lot of witnesses. There are a lot of agents right now in the hills that are infiltrating these militia groups, and... all these people will get killed. Their blood will be on your hands. I understand that you want... If I really thought that the government allowed the building to blow up, I would be with you 100 percent. But I know... and I believe... they were horrified when the bomb went off... really horrified."
McDonald: "Yeah, they all looked like they were in shock."
Caller: "They figured, as soon as McVeigh got free, as soon as he got... drove off in his car... and I'll tell you something they did. Do you what they did?"
McDonald: "What?"
Caller: ""They stole his license plate off that car. You know why? So they"d have probable cause to stop him on the interstate.... They stole his plate. Why do you think the plate was never found? His plate was stolen from the vehicle and the Federal Government stole the plate from the vehicle, so that he would be arrested... John Doe #2 would go free, they would put a sketch out that would make him "America"s Most Wanted." The only place that a man that would be wanted by the government can hide would be to be hid by the militia groups inside their infrastructure. ""But once he infiltrates the infrastructure... and he"s in... all of a sudden he"s a hero. And right now, you know, these groups probably believe that they have John Doe #2 and that they"re hiding him from the government and they"re doing the patriotic thing... and they believe that the building should have blown up. So they"re holding him. Now, this man"s privy to all kinds of information about future bombings, which we don"t even know how many bombs they have stopped because the agents... how many lives have been saved because that agent"s now in the militia. And if this comes to light... this operation...""
What the caller does is attempt to instill guilt in McDonald over her efforts to reveal the truth.
Yet McDonald did not allow 169 innocent people to be killed through her negligence and stupidity.
Caller (rep. Istook): "I don't think they expected the truck to blow up. I believe, and I've believed this for a long time... I believe that number two — John Doe #2 — was a federal agent working undercover. And I believe that he helped McVeigh steal the goods and helped buy the equipment, and I believe that he helped McVeigh make the bomb, and I believe that his whole task in this whole thing... his only real task was to render the device safe so that the federal agents could pretend to remove it and move in. They did not want to move in until he was cleared of the scene so that they wouldn't tip their hands. See what I'm saying? And the odds are pretty good that whole reason behind this is because they were after someone bigger than McVeigh, which means they probably think he was linked to somebody in the Militia movement or something like that. "So I think what you're saying... you know I understand what you're saying... but I don't think you see the big picture. I don't think that , you know, I'd only divulge a look at the big picture if that's the actual scenario. If that's the actual scenario, which I believe it to be, I think there really is no claim that the agent, that was John Doe #2, did not render the bomb safe. Which he very well may have rendered the bomb safe, and then McVeigh may have put in a second fail-safe which he didn't know about. Which is probably what's happened.... "I would bet money on that's, in fact, the way this whole thing came down. Yes, they stood out in front of the building. Yes, they followed him directly to the building. Yes, they watched him get out of the building... get out of the truck. Yes, they watched him drive off. That's not ... that was their plan. I don't believe they ever planned to apprehend him anywhere near the building. I believe that John Doe #2 was a federal witness. His job was to render the device safe. Therefore, the only thing sitting out in front of that building was a bomb... a truck loaded with a bomb that would not go off. And I think that's the situation. In fact I know it is."
McDonald: "Okay... so... so why didn't they just come out and explain that to everybody?"
Caller: "The public doesn't have to know that. When it comes to the national security and things like this, the public does not have to know... the public is not required to know. First of all, by doing that, they would've, uh, put their witness, which is the federal agent John Doe #2, they would have blown his cover, first of all. Which possibly he's involved in something right now that you have no idea about. You know, there very well may have been numerous plots involving numerous buildings. See what I'm saying? You don't have the whole picture... without full knowledge... what you may do may cost them their lives. You should be very aware of that."
McDonald: "Okay. Well, that's what I've been trying to be very careful of. I don't want to see anyone else get hurt. At the same time..."
Caller: "...Well, if that guy's cover's been blown, he'd dead already."
McDonald: "Do you think so?"
Caller: "Sure... I'm sure. Once you have gone up to this point, it has gotten out, which I'm sure it has, because there are moles everywhere... the chances are good that he's been terminated already and this whole thing has blown up in their face. I don't believe that, out of an act of negligence, these highly trained professionals would have allowed that man to leave that truck out in front of that building with its live bomb in it."
McDonald: No, no, no. It stood out there for the whole time, from the time it pulled up until it went off."
Caller: "That's what I'm saying. They would not have allowed it. The only reason they allowed the truck to sit there so long, is because in my opinion they were under the impression that that bomb was rendered safe. And I'd say that there was no rush... there was no reason... to evacuate the building. There was no rush to make an arrest. The truck was just going to sit out there until they went and towed it off. So I don't think they thought it was an emergency and I think either that John Doe #2 made a mistake in rendering the bomb safe, or McVeigh was smart enough to plant a second fail-safe. Which most bomb makers do."
McDonald: "Do you think that's why they didn't tell anybody?"
Caller: "No. The bomb was safe as far as they knew."
McDonald: "Okay. Well, that explains why there was so many of them (federal agents) there so fast."
Caller: "Exactly. They followed him to the building, their agent was in the truck with him when they followed him to the building, everything was under control, as far as they thought, all they had was the man who built the bomb that was not going to go off, because their agent had rendered it safe. And their whole thing was not a problem. Let him drive his truck right in front of his target, then they allowed him to drive off. "Once he drives off, he renders the truck safe, and then we can have the trooper arrest him on the interstate for bogus charges. Which they did, and this was all planned out 1 00 percent. I . . . I . . . I don't believe they allowed that truck. . . "
McDonald: "You don't think they intentionally let the bomb go off?"
Caller: "No, that's right. I'll never believe that."
McDonald: "Well, I mean, that's the only thing about this that I found so hard to believe."
Caller: "They... they thought the bomb was safe. They thought that their agent, who was in the truck and who helped prepare the bomb, would set it so it would not go off. Now, whether McVeigh went back to the truck... where the agent did not know... and put a second fail- safe... or the agent made a mistake and did not actually render the bomb safe like he was supposed to... that's what's going on here."
McDonald: "Well, see, that's it then. I wanted someone that would be able to tell us for a fact if this was, like, deliberate or not. You know what I'm saying?"
Caller: "I'm not gong to tell you that. Let me tell you something. I'm sure they had... everything was under surveillance there. So I'm sure they do have pictures of the building blowing up, and I'm sure they do have pictures of federal agents, and I'm sure they do have audio tapes of them saying: Let 'em go, let 'em go. . . Wait, wait, wait. . . " there was no rush in their mind. In their mind, there was no rush to get that truck away from that building... that bomb... was not supposed to go off. "Therefore, everything they did, fits, if you think about it. they followed it, they allowed it to drive up there knowing that there was a bomb in the truck. Their idea was to let John Doe #2 — their federal agent — they would be able to use him in further investigations of these bombings of these groups that are in militia groups. And this was a perfect entry in, because he could have went through there. "After McVeigh was arrested, John Doe #2 would have become a hero to the cause of the militias. And the militias would have taken him in and hid him, which would have made him part of the infrastructure of the militias. Which is what their goal was forthis whole thing... waste bust the militias. If you take the big picture, and look at the big picture, there were very few mistakes made on this sting operation, with the exception that John Doe #2, the federal agent, did not render the bomb safe. Just think of it this way, Ramona."
McDonald: "I've always been a big fan of the United States and that, but then... I've always been... this was the one thing that bothered me."
Caller: "They didn't let the building fall intentionally. Their opinion was that this bomb was rendered safe and this bomb would not go off. And their whole thing on this thing... if you think about it... it makes sense from a tactical standpoint. You would follow the truck to the building. You allow your lead suspect to get away from the building because it didn't blow up, because it's not supposed to. You take John Doe #2... he gets away, which is your federal agent. John Doe #1 — McVeigh — is arrested on a bogus charge and then later proven that he's the one who planted the bomb that did not go off."
McDonald: "But you honestly don't think that they really intended..."
Caller: "Not at all. Not at all. They would not have to. No.... Basically, what happened is, this was a mistake. Someone screwed up and the only one that screwed up... The agents on the scene? They didn't screw up. They did exactly what their orders were: Wait... allow the suspect to leave the scene. Once the suspect had left the scene, then render the truck safe, which is already safe. All they have to do is get in, give it a hot-wire, and drive it off to a safe location and then open up the back and disarm the bomb. Which was supposedly rendered safe to begin with. Okay? "And then, from there... they charge in... See, the plan... this plan was put in motion before the bomb ever went off. Their intent was to allow McVeigh to be arrested later on... John Doe#2 to get away... and then, John Doe #2, the Federal Government would have released a sketch or picture. And then, that man would have had to go underground and hide. Where would he hide? He would have hid with the militias. The militias would take him in as a hero. The militias would give him hero status in the Militia movement, which would allow him to be privy to information that the government could use later on... "...they did not want that building to blow up. I guarantee you this... their whole intent was that that bomb was rendered safe before it was ever parked in frontof that building... otherwise, they would have quietly..."
McDonald: "...Got everybody out of the building?"
Caller: "Got everybody out of the building, before the bomb ever even pulled up in front of the building. There was no reason for them to do that, because according to their plan, the bomb was safe now. There was no reason to evacuate the building and the panic... because there was a truck loaded with a bomb that was not going to blow up. . . . "
McDonald: "Okay." Caller: "See what I'm saying? And John Doe#2.... By going this far with it... Let me explain something to you. Your actions have consequences. There are a lot of witnesses. There are a lot of agents right now in the hills that are infiltrating these militia groups, and... all these people will get killed. Their blood will be on your hands. I understand that you want... If I really thought that the government allowed the building to blow up, I would be with you 100 percent. But I know... and I believe... they were horrified when the bomb went off... really horrified."
McDonald: "Yeah, they all looked like they were in shock."
Caller: "They figured, as soon as McVeigh got free, as soon as he got... drove off in his car... and I'll tell you something they did. Do you what they did?"
McDonald: "What?"
Caller: ""They stole his license plate off that car. You know why? So they"d have probable cause to stop him on the interstate.... They stole his plate. Why do you think the plate was never found? His plate was stolen from the vehicle and the Federal Government stole the plate from the vehicle, so that he would be arrested... John Doe #2 would go free, they would put a sketch out that would make him "America"s Most Wanted." The only place that a man that would be wanted by the government can hide would be to be hid by the militia groups inside their infrastructure. ""But once he infiltrates the infrastructure... and he"s in... all of a sudden he"s a hero. And right now, you know, these groups probably believe that they have John Doe #2 and that they"re hiding him from the government and they"re doing the patriotic thing... and they believe that the building should have blown up. So they"re holding him. Now, this man"s privy to all kinds of information about future bombings, which we don"t even know how many bombs they have stopped because the agents... how many lives have been saved because that agent"s now in the militia. And if this comes to light... this operation...""
What the caller does is attempt to instill guilt in McDonald over her efforts to reveal the truth.
Yet McDonald did not allow 169 innocent people to be killed through her negligence and stupidity.
